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A Pakistani talking bad about Indian immigrants ? How new and refreshing❤

In a small town, central Ontario. Our local grocery store, all the employees were/are from town… neighbours, who’d worked there for years, decades for a few. The ownership changed hands a few months back. All the employees (a third of the number that usually works a shift) are new hire immigrants, the cashiers recently arrived. Clearly they’re being under payed and do more… this is about the top raking in as much as possible. It’s a greed game. I wonder if corporations are bringing people in to be at beckon call, provide housing… like pimping. Canadians and new immigrants are the pawns in all their schemes. \nOh… and some of the best priced items that our family used as staples are no longer on the shelves! ?

What is the point really and has the current administration researched any potential negative outcome, do they even care. I think it takes a generation or two for new immigrant families to acclimate to a new way of life. In my opinion, if too many people come in just a few years we only end up with segregated communities fueling existing political discontent and animosity, not to mention third world ideology.

Wait a minute, I thought Torontonians are so friendly, lovely, and wonderfully diverse and multicultural? What's going on here with existing immigrants telling new immigrants to GTFO? Someone explain, please.

We have space for new Canadians but the liberals have done it all wrong !!!! If you build they will come lol not let them come without the proper infrastructure being already built . Typical liberal fashion everything they touch they break and immigration is no exception .

The buy in program has seen several different owners of a shell station over one yr, the buy in, and they have no concept of Canadas regulations , service, and care , safety of business. Every 7/11 is staffed by new immigrants no doubt subsidized by GovT, lots of unhappy people on this subject.

500,000 new immigrants a year, bring them on we have plenty of tents, parks, alleys and food banks for them to have totally miserable life just like the rest of us. To be honest the immigrants (truckers mostly, I'm a shipper/ receiver) I've talked to have told me that they would not recommend Canada to any of their friends and family, and that they can't save enough money to leave themselves. Just goes to show what a sad state Canada is in since Trudeau too over.

80 percent of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border for climate reasons . A new migrant is willing to work for less than the older arrived Migrant. Taxes are way too high , healthcare is a mess . Constant traffic jams due to overcrowding. Home prices thru the roof and insanely high . Stop immigration completely for 10 years . Canada will be better

Canada needs a 100% freeze on new immigration.

@4:20. You should either support this immigrant hypothesis with more information or you should cut it out of your video. Canada is one of the least densely populated major countries and the problem for your housing prices is less than 1M immigrants over the past 2years? And you're going to lead your causes of this problem with that? Give me a break.\nSpend more time on WHY building new houses is not profitable enough and is disincentivized. Talk about how incentivizing home ownership as a wealth building vehicle turned into a bubble and a ponzi scheme as those housing investments outpaced other investments. You know who can still afford to buy up houses, hold them, and prevent the market from deflating? Corporations. Shifting taxes that hurt poor people (like income and sales taxes) onto land value taxes would stop most of this. It would become expensive to sit on vacant investment houses and corporations and landlords would be forced to sell them.

Immigrants talking about new immigrants ???. But adoption of culture where you live is very important and keep area clean. Indias very hard working people you will not hear doing terrorist activities.

As a Canadian citizen, I see that there are 3 major issues at play in this problem - \n\n1) Canadian colleges are starved off funds and do not have a sufficient, stable source of revenue. Hence they seek to attract international students who pay (at least) 4X the fee a Canadian citizen would pay. According to mainstream media such as The Globe and Mail, National Post and others, International students contribute some where between $15 to $18 billion per year in revenue to Canada. This is huge!\n\nSince this is a lucrative revenue stream for them, they have gone overboard and are providing strong financial incentives to education / immigration consultants to bring more international students here. Consequently, many existing as well as new colleges are encashing on this trend and diploma mills have mushroomed in Canada lately. This is ABSOLUTELY Canada’s fault and the accountability of fixing this lies with Canada alone.\n\n2. International students who come here often end up taking humongous debt or selling off their homes/ancestral property to be able to afford their education and hence they feel cheated when the dream they were sold doesn’t match the reality. \n\nHaving said that, International students do need to understand that they are here or a temporary visa and DO NOT get to dictate terms to Canada. It is Canada’s sole prerogative to extend their work visa or not, depending upon Canadians requirements.\n\n3. The Trudeau Liberal government benefits by giving these students extended work permits and a pathway to citizenship as it translates into votes for them. However this is an atrocious approach to winning elections and puts unnecessary pressure on the system. \n\nCanada needs to streamline this whole student visa process and take stringent action against these fake diploma mills, education and immigration consultants luring foreign students. It damages Canada’s reputation.\n\nLastly, extend the work permits of only those students that meet Canada’s labour standards and requirements and send everyone else back home.

I’m the first one to condemn unbridled immigration or immigration policies. Yes, it’s out of control, way out of control. This is unfortunately a reversal of fortunes. The same people talking here about new immigrants not being Canadian are not Canadian either , and they came in uninvited and illegally. They took over the land, indiscriminately killed the local population to the point of eradication, brought in disease, small pox killed 90% of the indigenous people. Before you go around stirring up a hornets nest and interviewing people selectively, please read up. \n\nhttps://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY?si=Lj3ry4HBmRPiOzCe

New immigrants dont integrate in Canada or Canadian life. The priviledge of going to school is for study not PR. Its not a back door immigration program. You dont go to any other country and make demands or protest. Few if any go in the needed trades so time to go home. The numbers are unsustainable and its killing communities with housing and jobs as well as limited resources like healthcare and education. Governments and post secondary have failed Canadians who have had enough of paying the price and need borders closed. Clearly somewhere along the line these students are coming with false promises and expectations. With housing crisis if Colleges and Universities cant house all those they bring over on campus and provide the housing then higher caps to meet who they can house. Failure to do so close them down. Most communities are in emergency state for homelessness so of course no sympathy or tolerance for protests. Schools are for study only not a back door.

The left rampage against historical colonialism - the exploitation of Africa and Asia - but they support the new colonialism of stripping these areas of their best and brightest- where doctors, engineers, professionals trained at the expense of developing countries are encouraged to immigrate to the west - the hypocrisy!

Massive Indian immigrants are creating a new colonial system. They hire their people and continue the classism what is widely practiced in their country.

Guys, Canada is big, u will never find jobs (or) be able to afford to live in Canada if u guys prefer just to live in Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. My suggestion is explore northern Canada, jobs are plenty in those area with no one to work. New immigrants just dont explore outside the box in opinion. I am living example, came as a student, studied & worked median jobs fr 3yrs. Secured a professional job in the 4year and I travelled all across Canada fr opportunities (East,West,North & South). The minute u step outside u will see a bigger unexplored Canada that many new immigrants r missing out.

It’s not a new thing people have always came to canada and left. I worked with canada immigration and in late 90’s early 2000 I can give you the stats canada use to target 250000 immigrants a year and only could bring 160000 to 190000 immigrants In a year and never met the target on top of that Approximately 60000 immigrants used to leave canada either after getting citizenship or for other reasons. People who left were from different countries, backgrounds and religions.

Stop the blame game , shame on you blaming immigrants and foreign home owners these are a tiny proportion of the population and homes . Real estate agents are the biggest culprits in the rise of prices. I’ve been there several times as telling me my house is worth hundreds of thousands more or we can say exaggerated by 30% or more then my house is on the market for a year which is nota big deal for an agent they have 40 other listings and access to more moneymakers , I’ve sold my last 2 homes personally within days or weeks which were reasonably priced not overpriced this made everyone happy . Building a home is never a problem buy the land get proper permits and select a quality builder I’ve had steady employment and certainly not rich blue collar salary and never have been refused for a mortgage so if you want to build it’s always available , if you qualify for a mortgage.\nAs for your immigration babble do you like to eat food if the answer is yes you should appreciate immigrants, do you like the care you get in hospitals thanks again to immigrant nurses caregivers therapists, how about the next time you stay at a hotel/resort thank immigrants for cooking and cleaning , \nSure stuff costs more you can put some blame on lifetime pensions for politicians and senators for a few years work , over the top spending on government trips , the Governor General expense on wardrobe, minister of whatever buying new boots or shoes to make an announcement total abuse of taxpayer $ , government projects which get cancelled for who knows why and many projects which are unnecessary which are beneficial only to family and friends giving their private businesses contracts , same old guys club new blood is required with new ideas and purpose . \nCanada is expensive I’ll agree but still top 10 to reside in the world if you like life and freedom , eating regularly, lights on , water from your tap, getting to your job on real roads , getting an abortion , not expecting a hospital bill when you arrive home from heart surgery, the list goes on , whiners are are whiners the rest are makers and make our lives better .as for other post saying things are so much cheaper in the states , I don’t pay 10$ for a carton of eggs this happened last year in Arizona state the facts ,

This is plain and simple. There are not enough places for rent. For both Canadians and a never ending population growth from outside canada that outpaces building. \nIn three months they cannot and will never be enough places built for rent to justify bringing over 430 000 people.\nSo based on that alone those newcomers will be taking a place for rent away from a Canadian citizen. It's not racism, it's not discrimination. It's fact.\nCanadian citizens or any citizen of any country should not have to struggle to find a place to live and be able to afford a place to live because the governemt increases the population from outside faster than they can build. It's irresponsible, selfish, and outright wrong.\nIts not the politicians who are suffering or the businesses who will never make enough profit(look at the grocery sector.) it is the people within Canada.\nI am not against immigration. I am against the amount until infrastructure can keep up with the influx of new people. And even then it cannot be a one for one. It should be at least 2 to 1 and new growth. Anything more than that and the cost of housing will outpace inflation.\nPlus senior citizens(who helped build this country) , veterans, people on disability, and mental health/addicts recovering, deserve the increased financial help instead of the money that is sent to other countries..

Treason Trudeau expects Canadians to pay for these new immigrants to Canada. Trudeau thinks we are his personal ATM machine. While these new immigrants live free while struggling, Canadians live in tents, and use food banks.

Immigration is good. International student is good. The question is why so many Indians? more broadly, why 3rd world people? I think the government get people from 3rd world people purposely. It is time to cap number based on nationality. Canada deserves diversity. It is not a new new Deli ok?

Her numbers are wrong...\nThere was more than 1.2 million people allowed to enter Canada last year alone(2023), and more than a half million the year before...\nOt hasn't been as low as 250k immigrants since trudau got I to office and brought 50k somalians in as fast as he could possibly do it, and they weren't vetted for criminal background checks due to trudau being in such a hurry to get them into canada (he was planning ahead and needed them eligible to vote for his party as soon as possible)... ...security background checks have not been properly don't since trudau got into office, and it's partially because there is simply no possible way to do a proper background check on people that have never had any form of I.D., or have no idea what day they were born, nor any idea what year.\nThis is the reason why there are a few hundred thousand new migrants with birthday all listed as Jan1, the birthday given to those with no way of knowing when they were born.\nIf you can't determine when a person was born, how could you possibly do a background check to find out if they are a convicted rapist, suspected terrorist, a violent carjacker, drug dealer or just a simple theif of anything that can be stolen and sold quickly for a dollar...?

People working such as ICBC are constantly making troubles for new comers or immigrants as many people observed. Full of discrimination in so many institutions. How irony that it's a 'friendly' country.

How about to require new immigrants coming in to satisfy some minimal obligations: they must be literate in English or/and French. They cannot come with a criminal record on the books. They cannot have chronic illnesses requiring lengthy or prolonged hospitalization, at the expense of the country. They must have some sort of vocational background: they must be skilled in a job or a vocation, specifically in cyber technology, financial arena, teaching, industrial experience above the level of manual or piece labor. And they must have some kind of financial backing of their own; money in the bank, relatives already in Canada with whom they might live and share expenses. Canada can rightfully close its doors to any immigrant with a prison record-esp. in violent crimes or theft; to any person coming to its doors with only the shirt on their backs and a large family, and to those who are illiterate in either French or English (or both). Nor should Canada feel itself bound and obligated to admit to its territory, as new citizens, anyone coming from an Asian community bringing with them a culture alien to the religion of its own citizenry.

I live in a tiny north eastern ontario town. There is no diversity really. Until this last few years.\nWe know everyone who is new.\nHoly geez, its like a crazy influx of immigrants.\nThey are nice for the most part. I like them. \nExcept them buying up all the commercial property.

As the daughter of an immigrant, I am all for diversity, but this has gotten out of hand. I don't need to book a trip to New Delhi. I just need to take the Go train to Brampton or Mississauga. And from what I saw on my layover, Calgary too. Every woman I know, myself included, has been sexually harassed and/or assaulted by an Indian man. I have also been threatened with physical violence by an Indian man in a turban. Not to say that violent men are all Indian, but I don't feel safe at all in Toronto.

This reflects the fact that Canada lacks opportunities and new immigrants have to rely on their ethnic community to start their new life which is tough, cold (meaning weather) and lonely one.

Some of the new immigrants truck drivers ,they are rude they think they own the highway drive too fast mostly drive in the centre lane even when they don’t need to they don’t care about the cars. I saw one that he was eating and he had his knees on the wheels of the truck. How safe is that they don’t obey the laws of the highway.

Canadian authorities offer nothing but lies and misinformation when it comes to relocating to Canada, they offer all kinds of wonderous programs and relocation assistance to leave you high and dry with nothing - Canada is becoming an economic wasteland which offers no prospects and no future. Housing and rental markets are a joke. Health care system is a joke...... I spent 7 years waiting to sign on with a family GP. The employment markets is a total joke with wages being stagnant for around 10 years. As an immigrant your home country qualifications won't be recognized by Canadian employers and used as another excuse to offer you a pathetically low wage. Then there's the never ending bureaucracy if you want to relocate or establish a new business...... the only thing that seems to thrive in Canada is political corruption..

For the sake of existing, new, and potential immigrants…. Make it super fast and super cheap to deport convicted criminals.

South Asian Indians are fourth generation Canadians and are educated, successful and have assimilated with the European culture. The french lady should see Montreal, it is cool to see Indians, Chinese speaking French. Do you ask why there are too many Chinese in Chinatown? Sadly the new immigration are bad Trudeau policies that India wanted deported back. Others are temporary honest Indian students that are being ripped off by Canadian wrong policies of shameless cash grab. Assimilation for new immigrants could be something in common e.g. free classical piano lessons for everyone in school. Music and language is a great first step in communication. The drug problem has nothing to do with immigration, it is the result of their own culture of drug abuse and bad Canadian policies. I think it is sad that the woman seems to be so negative without realizing the she has to care and use her power for good by demanding that no Canadian should be on the streets, this is why ALL Canadians (especially include South Asian Indians) pay taxes. where is our money going? is not the Canadian Government responsible for the welfare of ALL Canadians? we were the peacekeepers. Canada is a puppet to western primitive thinking foreign policy in a proxy war to destroy beautiful Christian Russia?? Trump has outsmarted Trudeau on every agreement. Canadians are paying double to a country that wants our water!!! I wish Senior Trudeau was here to protect Canadians.

Why only brampton all major cities are now south asian majority... All new immigrants are South asians

He's a fall guy for cheap trucking companies. New immigrants rely on their employment to stay in the country and their employers use that leverage to skirt safety and labour regulations. They'll bribe driving instructors to certify their guys, get them to forge their books so they can drive longer shifts, then wipe their hands clean when one them kills a bus full of kids. \n\nDeport him or not, the people above him need to be held accountable. Canadian born truckers have been complaining about these practices for years, but people love free next day delivery.

Being an Indian living in India I can tell you one thing that mostly people who are not 'good enough' in anything pay lumsum amount of money to move to Canada. For instance, most of the students going to Canada for study, lack foundational knowledge that should've been taught to them at school. Take a GRE-like exam by randomly selecting Indians residing in this area and u will understand what I'm talking about. Unfortunately, the current Canadian govt knows this and capitalise on this problem as they have turned the education system of Canada into a money-vending machine. Furthermore, no skill development opportunities and lack of jobs intensify these problems as these individuals are never exposed in a multicultural urban setting. That is why likeminded individuals aggregate and live in silos. Lastly, for my Indian brothers and sisters, I would like to say that yall should try to assimilate with the culture rather than live in silos. That doesn't necessarily mean yall should abandon ur religion and culture, but try to participate more in various activities associated with Canadian culture. Like Im a Hindu, but I participate in Eid & Christmas as well in India.. We should be open to new experiences, especially when moving to a foreign country, one should be able to adapt.. just like one adapts to the weather, one should also embrace the culture.. Try talking to people who are 'non-Indians', have a genuine conversation, find out the history of the place and various other key milestones in the region.. mostly engage in amicable social behaviour. Holding grudge & closing doors to new interactions would not solve anything, neither for Canadians nor for immigrants.. Live and let live.. Cheers!

Very kidding same reason still used by Canadian employers for job seekers without local working experience today when moving to Canada more than 20 years ago. Think twice if you want to move to Canada for better life without job. This is not a country for many professionals. They will use same excuses used back to 20 years ago to reject you: no local work experience, no Canadian degree, etc. The truth is no opportunity. They just want you come to spend money for paying higher rent, living expenses to make economy grow. Their middle class population is dying everyday. It will be getting worse and worse in the coming future, believe or not. Good luck new Canadian immigrants.

When I first immigrated to Canada, it seems that government`s filter on who should be moved to here was more selected and moreover, ppl really wanted to absorve and appreciate Canada`s culture whereas now, I see more and more new immigrants imposing their own culture here. It`s been 2 years that I`ve been seen news about cars being robbed, and in small cities, ppl being stabbed until death in the subways where you didn't even thought about this kind of situation here in Canada. I`m paying a lot for too less in life quality.

I’m one of those new immigrants, originally from China. I’d like to share my point of view on this subject. For immigrants, sometimes the number one reason to move to another country is the harshness of their home country. In my case, China is not a pleasant place to live - everywhere is overcrowded, housing is insanely expensive, and job opportunities are mostly concentrated on big cities. So, if a young person like myself stayed in China, my only option to make a living is to join the rat race with another million people, work 60 hours a week, all for a 2-bedroom apartment. The minimum wage in China is the equivalent of $4 Canada dollars per hour. I don’t earn the minimum wage, but this should tell you how underpaid workers are over there. I’m ok with working hard and I have worked hard my entire life, got two degrees before 25 while studying as a non-English speaker, but I can’t bear the thought of not being fairly compensated for my work. In a freer and more transparent society, at least worker’s rights are protected. I could have chosen other countries to migrate to, but Canada seemed to have the fastest processing time and highest chance of accepting at the time, so I took the opportunity. I’m sorry for the Canadians who got caught up in a poorly managed immigration system. All I am saying is, if you are in my shoes, you would rather take this chance to move here - this could be the one of a lifetime window of opportunity.

I moved to Canada since 2007. Overall, I am happy with Canada. I think a lot of new immigrants has unrealistic expectations of coming to Canada. I started renting a room in a house sharing the bathroom and kitchen with other tenants. But look at the new immigrants today, they all start living in nice condos. Condo rental price back in 2008 is also expensive compared with the income level back then. Sure, today’s market is more expensive, but what is not? But looking at the stock market, you don’t expect to buy Amazon stock at 2008 price level, are you? If Toronto is too expensive, then move to more affordable locations, eg. PEI.

The government has welcomed in 1.2 million people from January 2023-2024. We cannot sustain those numbers, and even more disturbing, our new immigrants are from Asia and East Asia, and Africa, not from other countries off the world. We don’t need people like you encouraging more immigrants to come here, when we can’t afford the average 600,000 new immigrants per year that has been forced on us since 2015.

The immigration problem is very real and im glad you brought it up. I'm tired of being called a bigot for simply recognizing that the we dont have enough homes to sustain our citizens, let alone new migrants. I think we need to severely cut down immigration until we can build the required infrastructure to support them.\n\nWhat the trudeau government has done to this country has made me utterly hopeless. I see no future for myself here and yet I also have no idea how to leave this nightmare of a country.

Deport my god what happened to Canada. These people only associate with their own and block us out. Come on really housing has gone un afordable. You can find many family's under one roof. Housing is not reachable for young Canadian family's who want a back yard. Housing that was $15,000 or so is $500,000 up to un reachable a crap tear down I seen was $535,000. And you need to build a new house. That use to be around $60,000 to $120,000. Canadian family's don't have a chance to have normal priced housing any more because of over immigrants. City's are huge and depressing. Bring Canada back and deport so we can live

Every third person that you meet in Canada in 20 years will be from South Asia. Most of us are economic immigrants and came here to live a happy peaceful prosperous life and contribute to the economy in the form of taxes. We are not a drain on the exchequer - most of our unproductive part of our lives have been paid off by India and now Canada is reaping those benefits. Did British people adopt the culture and customs of First Nations- did Italians and other Europeans adopt British customs- same applies to people from India- we will be bringing cultural elements but do not overpower the locals by any means.\n\ncrime town in canada is north Battleford, Thompson, red deer and Prince Albert and not Brampton. How many people from South Asia are in tents, homeless and drug junkies. Go to places of employment and south Asians don’t act as privileged- we are grateful to the country that is our new home and treat the land with respect and live with dignity.

If government creates lots of jobs before inviting new immigrants then everybody will be happy.

Found my sister binge watching this channel and i have to say all of these questions aren't new. If you never travelled to these countries before, you wouldn't know them. It's standard for the Americas, Europe. Nothing like you heard it here first.\n\nI remember last year I told the immigration officer in British Columbia that I spoke a little french, and she suddenly spoke French to me, to see if i wasn't lying. It is old information, and so are deportations.

I am ashamed of the political leadership and politically correct culture that made these things a reality for new immigrants. There is still hope. We're going to elect better leaders within 2 years.

how many waves of immigrants are there are they new cuz the old wave might have died

KARMA BITES BACK \n\nYou had the “Indian Problem” now the “new Indians” are the “karma payback” for all that you did to the original inhabitants of Canada. \n\nHistorically, the racial segregation of Indigenous peoples in Canada has been enforced by the Indian Act, reserve system, residential schools, and Indian hospitals, among other programs. These policies interfered with the social, economic, cultural and political systems of Indigenous peoples, while also paving the way for European settlement across the country. The segregation of Indigenous peoples in Canada must be understood within the history of contact, doctrines of discovery and conquest, and ongoing settler colonization.\nEuropean Settlement and the “Indian Problem”\n\nHistorically, Indigenous peoples were considered a threat to European settlement and expansion. During the creation of the Numbered Treaties (1871–1921), for example, the federal government made agreements with various First Nations as a means of developing their territories for industrial development and White settlement. While many Indigenous signatories were reluctant to sign the treaties, they eventually did so because of a lack of food (due to the declining bison on the plains) and the vast spread of infectious diseases, among other reasons.\n\nWith settler colonization came the framing of the “Indian Problem” — the prevailing belief that Indigenous peoples needed to be assimilated into Euro-Canadian culture because their traditional ways were considered “uncivilized” and “immoral.” The term “Indian Problem” is attributed to Duncan Campbell Scott of Indian Affairs. In 1918 he said,\n\n“I want to get rid of the Indian problem. I do not think as a matter of fact, that the country ought to continuously protect a class of people who are able to stand alone… Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question, and no Indian Department...”\n\nWhere are the “original Indians of Canada”? \n\nThey were killed and decimated by the Euro-Canadian colonisers. \n\nThese immigrants are your karma. For what you did to “original Indians”. They are now reborn. This is karma. \n\nThey will not treat you as your ancestors treated the indigenous people of this vast land. These Indians are kind. They are also culturally endowed. They are resolute, dynamic , hardworking and fair. \n\nThe Indians may not be “fair” in complexion but would be “fair” to the poor of their adopted country. \n\nCanada ❤ Indians. \n\nKarma always bites back.

??\nIt Doesn't matter how many Canadians leave ! ??\nThe liberal/ndp government have it covered. \nThey have Millions and Millions of 3rd world immigrants coming ! The quality of life will drop soon but will make our New Citizens feel at Home ! ❤

Who said they don't want to go home? Canada invites international students with a promise to give them PR if they can finish school and qualify using one of the programs. I know because that's how I came to Canada. Unlike the US where it's hard to stay and you need a marriage, in Canada you can use a qualifying job. Usually people sponsored by family to get PR, as well as refugees, are put ahead of international students as well as those on work permits. \n\nIn the meantime, International students over-pay into post secondary, as well as working off campus and paying taxes, but are always last in line when it comes to being granted PR. The rules change so much so fast, it's easy to find yourself out of time and kicked out of the country. \n\nSo whoever watches this will be happy that International students are getting kicked out, but the problem with too much immigration won't be solved because the country is still taking in so many refugees. Right now it's international students getting the axe and are the scape goats in ths game. \n\nAlso, the reason why Canada takes in more immigrants beyond the obvious, is because they want to eventually do away with property rights. So while people can cheer kicking out international students, it doesn't prevent the inevitable from happening, because the politicians took in too many new people.. \n\nAnyway, good luck to everyone, from either side of this debate, it's bad news all around wharever the final outcome.