Close Reading

The situation is crazy pretty much everywhere when it comes to housing prices, and all the Western countries are suffering more than the others with Canada probably the most inflated.

I live in Seattle, have come to Vancouver BC plenty of times and see way nicer amount of cars all over. Is the reality different than all these videos of how harsh life in Canada can be or is Van just a playground for the rich?

Canada is a great country. Many rich countries around the world have their issues. Population here is booming. If you want to leave for greener pastures good for you. For every person who wants to leave terrible Canada you will be able to find 10 who would love to come here. Proudly born and raised here. ??♥️

Food prices are a hot topic right now. Interestingly, I was in Fort Myers Florida recently shopping at Publix and I was astonished by the high food prices versus stores around Toronto. 1.5L of Tropicana orange juice was $7.99 USD compared to $5.99 CAD, green/red peppers were much more expensive. Cereals, bread, potatoes, meats…. everything I found was consistently more expensive in USD versus CAD. Once you factor in the exchange rate it was just that much more painful. Perhaps Fort Myers is unique in this respect, or maybe it was a Publix issue, but I was happy to come home to much more reasonable food prices. \n\nWe definitely have our issues in Canada, but I love Canada. Our lakes, wilderness, and wildlife are truly majestic. We have virtually unlimited freedom to explore and roam this beautiful land. As one comment stated wisely, too many people live beyond their means and make unwise purchase decisions that create stress. Having said that, I realize that wealth and income inequality have never been worse, and many people face very difficult daily struggles. I do think Canada offers a better social safety net structure vs US to help people through those struggles, but we are definitely heading in the wrong direction in that respect. These are complex issues that are difficult to solve.

If you come from the UK, Canada is much better in every respect. So many variables but good points made here.

Don’t worry, help is coming, Canadiens won’t need to move south of the border cuz USA will annex Canada, starts with Trump, it’s all a matter of time??! Remember, Trump wanted Greenland!??

Hello Seyi,\nPlease there’s this question which am finding it a bit confusing and it particularly about the eligibility!\n\n\n- Are you accompanying a family member that has status in Canada, or has recently been approved to come to Canada? \n- Do you want to apply for more than 1 person at the same time?\n\n- Do you want to submit an application for a family member?\n\nIn my case my spouse is an EU citizen and is exempt as she even though we traveling together!

Many cash rich investors from Ukraine, Russia, Israel, and China. The first three well known as to where their money is coming from and why they are fleeing war torn regions. Most of Ukraine and Israel is funded by US government institutions but Russia’s emigrants have left Russia due to disagreements with how Russia is being administered. China mainlanders parking investing money into Canada in order to cater for future immigration and future education needs for their kids and others that wish to follow.\n\nCanada, like Hawaii, Miami, and Las Vegas are experiencing overinflated housing investors willing to pay the asking cost for the real estate. Like the rest of the planet, many of the newer generation tend to flock to warmer regions of the planet. The other areas that experience the housing Price shocks are places also where foreign students tend to flock to, especially those from Asian nations like China.\n\nCanada’s BC Vancouver, Edmonton, Manitoba, and Calgary tend to cater to willing Indian, Pakistani, Central Asian, Hong Kong Chinese, Singapore, Japanese, Malaysian, and Taiwanese parents willing to spend big money to educate their kids in Canadian English language programs that the Canadian governments organized with educators. \n\nSpending well over five figures a year in order to educate these young kids to grasp English and eventually have a pathway to citizenship like South Africa’s Elon Musk. The CCP was Party to these programs till Xi’s second term of rule and the huge budget deficits occurring due to the transference of Chinese domestic spending happening overseas especially in Canada and Australia caused the CCP to stop this growing deficit in household spending within the Chinese domestic economy. They couldn’t allow these newly minted millionaires to raise their kids like elite CCP party members families and friends. \n\nThey tried to stop it, but the Canadian taxpayers raised complaints about soaring property, and income taxes to their politicians and it’s slowed this process down but loopholes still exist and it is still occurring. \n\nThe top party leaders of China sending their kids to expensive European and USA institutions such as Xi’s children especially his Harvard / Oxford educated daughter, whose fiancée is a British citizen involved in all trades, China’s evolving EV industries! Move on over Elon, a new competitors in town due to some big connections within the CCP party.\n\nCanada housing is overinflated for the next several decades.

No offence to new immigrants but if you came here past 2018 you should not be allowed to buy a house until house prices get back to sane levels. I was born in raised in a small town surrounded by farmland in Ontario and the average cost of a home is now 700k. 20 years ago it was 150k. No one I grew up with can afford a home, I'm sorry but Canadians first. Other countries seem to care way more about their own people waaaay more than here. I feel like Canadians are constantly the ones who just have to suck it up. Its absolutely nonsense. Either something has to happen or I, and many Canadians in the same position will leave. Canada sucks at the moment, do not come here! Almost everyone I talk to who is born here agrees, lib, con, ndp, doesn't matter what political party they usually vote for, they want immigration to stop, and homes to be built. We're at the breaking point.

Punjabi taxi drivers and truck drivers have infiltrated canada in lakhs n lakhs in last 5 years they even come to canada as student at age of 45 & 50 and once here drive cab n truck \nStudent visa just a gate pass

Come Canada only to vacay not take up apts, jobs, services, and welfare.

It is not easy to get a job in canada and the world at large...please, tell your viewers who want to come to canada to carry money to sustain them before finding a job.

I don't blame them for leaving. They were mislead into coming to Canada thinking that they could get rich easily, but instead found out the cost of living was too high for them. So be warned ahead of time immigrants, if you want to live in Canada, you must have alot of money, or you're going to literally die in the freezing cold.

come to quebec :) canada is really boring

Thank u for the information, I'm coming to Canada next year.

This is mostly the marginal explanation. What is actually causing the problems in Canada is PRECISELY the expectations of a high standard of living absolutely everyone has, including brand new immigrants. Who as if they were owed a palace immediately begin complaining about the work they have to do and the fact they're not immediately appointed the king of Canada. To put simply, we have an incredibly spoiled population, a population that expects low prices for everything and has a terrible productivity overall and does not wish to work in the kinds of jobs that every economy needs in order to fuel everything else. Food production is the so-called inceptive value. The more food you produce, the more people can consume it, and this in turn flows through the economy to enable all the other kinds of economic activity. We have to bring in hundreds of thousands of temporary foreign workers from Mexico just to be able to harvest. In the past, Canada allowed immigration from all over the world of people who were mostly poor, refugees, and those desperate for a new life. They worked all the time doing every kind of imaginable job in every kind of condition. They built this country with their perseverance and hard work. The immigrants today, are selected on a points-based system, and the idea behind this is that someone with two university degrees, or trained in a profession, even if they don't work in their field in Canada because they're all sorts of barriers to transferring your education, are not very likely to be criminals or antisocial types. Criminals or antisocial types. In other words, Canada has chosen to attract high quality candidates on the assumption that they would be less likely to become criminals, while they in turn, having been picked from the best in their society, arrive in Canada with very high expectations, and discover that actually they're going to have to work in all sorts of other kinds of jobs and will probably not work in their field, even though that's what got them the points to come to the country. The country. This is the brilliant system brought in by Stephen Harper's conservatives, which brings in people with high education, and allegedly high skills, especially high language skills, so the government doesn't have to pay for their language training, but it doesn't consider the fact that these are very often people with other choices, who are not willing to work in construction or farming or service or retail or all those kinds of things that we desperately need workers in. The reason why we can't build enough housing has nothing to do with local governments and property values. It has to do with lack of labor. This education system, for some unbeknowned reason, is absolutely terrible, and provides basically no skills, training or education for the vast majority of high school students such that when they graduate high school, their forced to go to university or college. Since they have absolutely no training. In most parts of the world you finish high school and you have a trade, or you have some skill to begin working, the kids here know nothing. Nothing. Other than emotional safety, intersectional language, and wokeism. On top of that, the government has brought in every kind of environmental restriction and regulation on account of incredibly loud, but actually small minority of enviro lunatics, who most of the time use these environmentalism as a cover precisely for protecting their high property values in very luxurious and special places around the country, and they oppose logging and all sorts of resource extraction under the guise of environmentalism. But it's actually to preserve their special privileged position often in some wilderness or island, where they might be the only one or a handful of families who got lucky to somehow own a property. Property and so they oppose everything on account of environmental reasons. But it's just to keep people out and preserve their own privileged place. This country also as most others suffers from the illness of dishonesty and lack of integrity brought about by a culture of marketers where nothing is the way it is said to be. Everything is a fine print. And we have gotten used to this as normal. We've gotten used to having credit cards, charges, 25% interest, we've gotten used to being ripped off constantly by all the corporations for everything, and nobody complains and they just borrow more and they just bottle it in and now it's finally coming out. Out. People are fed up of the enviral lunatics. They're fed up of people who complain and bitch one moment about the pipeline and then complain and bitch the next moment about the high cost of gasoline when the pipeline is temporarily shut down for servicing. The problem with Canada is Canadians.

canada is a pretty good choice for most immigrants before 2019, but since then, especially the pandemic, the house price ramped up, and the opening policy of immigration make it worse, more people come into canada, and less house built, because the house owner dont want their house depreciate, they vote the governor who prefer build less.

old school canada: immigrant are starving and eating rats in third world, come to canada for food and cloth. \nImmigrant: people are literally live in poverty here and there is no opportunity, just buy few houses here and looking for somewhere else for quality living.

Canada has very high tax with little work opportunity. Canada is only attractive for third world countries who wants to live in a decent society. But sadly they bring the same hell from which they come from and bring different values which are not secular or liberal. Sooner or later it will be a mess like UK or Sweden, where a different society will demand their religious ways. And Canada is just allowing them without the bother of integration. \nBeing a former Pakistani, who is liberal, I can tell you that most of the people do not have any intention of integration. Sadly the same is going on in Australia now.

Not only immigrants, everybody living in canada suffering, how come?

I immigrated to Canada in 2010, and here are my experiences inside and outside Canada. I am grateful for a good education; having a Canadian passport opened up many opportunities in other countries to build a higher-level career. However, if I had known the amount of stress, health, and financial damage that I had to endure, I wouldn't have chosen to come to Canada. I would have remained in the US or EU countries where I could achieve even more without suffering to the level I did here. \n\nMisleading immigration promotion: The government-sponsored Canadian immigration program oversells what Canada can offer. It withholds information on the cost of living, chicken-and-egg problems like Canadian work experience is required to get a job at the same level as you are in, Canadian credit history is required to rent a proper apartment, Canadian education is required to secure a high-level job, etc. \n\nHiring process: I knew the Canadian system was not ideal for immigrants over a decade ago, but it got so bad now that even the born citizens are unable to survive. The Canadian government and employers lack a basic understanding that ambitious, high-achieving people immigrate to other countries for high-level positions using proper channels. It's ridiculous to see that Canada uses a point-based system to choose highly qualified personnel to enter their country yet expects them to pursue low-paying entry-level or labor jobs just because they have brown/black skin. At first, I thought having a Canadian degree and experience might help me get high-level jobs, and I didn't think how I spoke or looked would matter when I had high credentials to show off. So, I got my masters & Ph.D. from the Univesity of Toronto, which consistently ranks #1 in Canada. I have a bachelor's from a prestigious university in Asia and had a high-competitive, well-paid federal government job in another country. Still, none of that was recognized in Canada, and I had to volunteer for over 6 months, 10 to 12 hours/day, in a research lab that led to a funded PhD program. I worked even harder during my Ph.D. with many accomplishments, like 40+ research and leadership awards, internationally recognized scientific discoveries, and innovative technologies. I checked all the above and beyond in various domains (research, teaching, leadership, business, engineering consulting, collaborations, etc.). Yet, employers couldn't see past my race, gender, age, etc., and refused to give me the opportunity at the level of my qualifications. Luckily, I managed to secure short-term work in the UK & the US, and it changed even how I see myself. I was highly respected for my credentials, given higher positions than I applied for, and paid 3-4 times more salary and benefits. Of course, bias is an integral part of every society, but my race, gender, age, etc., were not as big of an issue to begin my career at the mid-career stage in these countries as opposed to Canada. \n\nHealthcare: Access to healthcare was another big challenge for me. When I moved to Canada in 2010, due to extremely low temperatures, I developed hives all over my body, my eyes got red, and I coughed for many months. The doctor said there was nothing wrong with me and refused to give me any medication. It took us years to get a family doctor, and we got one through my personal network. In 2015/2016, I developed an autoimmune disease, and my eyeballs popped out. As of today, I did not get to see an eye specialist as they have only 1 specialist in the area, and the waiting time is for years for the first consultation. Every time the family doctor told me that I had iron deficiency, even when I insisted that they should run additional tests and they cleared, they were flagged. The doctor never diagnosed my autoimmune condition. Luckily, during my short-term work in the UK, I saw competent interns who completed my care. NHS is poorer than the medical system in Canada... they are understaffed, don't have hospital beds after surgery, or don't have stock of paper gowns, yet the staff are highly competent and caring. Within 1-2 years, they did complete diagnosis by sending me to various specialists, completed eye surgery, and even found a lifelong condition that was preventing me from realizing my full potential. Following, in the US, the doctors confirmed the diagnosis of all the conditions within 1-2 months and put me on two small pills for life. It has dramatically changed my life, and I have even more admiration for the medical profession. While in Canada, I suffered for over a decade, and every time, I was treated as a hypochondriac and never given a single prescription. \n\nQuality of life: Big cities like Toronto are mainly affected by high crime rates, overpopulation, cost of living, low employment, low salaries, etc. A few months back, there was a huge auto theft, and one of my contacts lost their Lexus car within minutes of parking. Despite being a scientist, I have no faith in politicians or individuals fixing these problems. The salaries are not increasing, but the taxes and cost of living are on the exponential growth curve. The ridiculous part is that Canada expects you to pay taxes even when you are not employed or living in Canada! I lived in London and Boston, and they offer a much higher quality of life and pay. \n\nGrowth potential: No wonder Canada, being a G7 country, falls at the bottom of the list in innovation, equal opportunities, economic growth, etc. It has a decent education system but, due to its inherent bias in the hiring process and monopoly of certain businesses, loses talented immigrants and highly qualified Canadians to the US, the UK, and EU markets. Unless there is a dramatic shift in policies, Canadians, especially new immigrants, cannot expect any positive experience in Canada except for being discriminated against and losing valuable time and money by being there.

Dont come to canada really it sucks life sucks never consider moving in canada

***National Post***\nMuslim leaders should've condemned Hamas instead of fomenting hate\nIf they had spoken out against terrorism, their advocacy of the Palestinian cause would carry much more weight. \n\nPart of the reason we are seeing division, hatred and unrest in the streets of Montreal, Toronto and other communities across Canada is due to the collective failure of Muslim leaders, in Canada and around the world, to condemn the despicable Oct. 7 terror attack by Hamas on Israeli civilians. \n\nIt was a horrific and cowardly attack by a terrorist group — not by all Palestinians, Arabs or the wider Muslim community. It should have been condemned and contained immediately. Muslims who pride themselves as followers of a peaceful religion should have empathized and consoled the grieving Jews. \n\nThere was a lot of time to do this. There was a lengthy delay between the attack and Israel’s ground offensive in Gaza. Instead of taking this time to condemn Hamas’s slaughter, Arab and Muslim politicians and government leaders promoted anti-Jewish hate to shore up their political support. This is nothing less than encouraging antisemitism. \n\nMuslim political and religious leaders, barring rare exceptions, chose to contextualize, equivocate and, in most cases, justify Hamas’s barbarity. What we have, as a result, is widespread hate bordering on violence in Canada — a country where communities have historically lived side-by-side in peace. \n\nThe situation got worse due to the statements made by community leaders like Amira Elghawaby, Canada’s special representative on combating Islamophobia, who did not hide her partisan and divisive outlook by clearly siding with the protesters on Canadian streets, characterizing them as “peaceful demonstrations,” even though we have seen people supporting Hamas, calling for genocide against Israeli Jews and harassing and intimidating Jewish-owned businesses. \n\nOn Twitter, Elghawaby approvingly cited a quote from a Toronto Star column reading, “The stories I have heard are both fantastical and true. Muslims (and others who silently sympathize with the loss of Palestinians lives) are being disciplined, maligned, isolated and targeted at work.” \n\nInstead of reaching across the aisle and consoling the Jewish community, she has instead chosen to focus her public comments on rising Islamophobia. \n\nSeriously? Remember the Muslim family who were killed in a hate-related attack in London, Ont., a couple years ago? All communities, including the Jewish community, across the political and religious spectrum unambiguously condemned that hate crime. And it brought a sense of relief and security to Muslims in Ontario. \n\nRemember how, after more that 50 people were gunned down while worshipping at mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, in 2019, political and religious leaders from all faiths stood behind Muslims and consoled them? \n\nAlso, after the Quebec mosque attack, almost all communities in Canada chose to stand with Muslims. There were images of people in Alberta who formed a human chain to protect Muslims. Similar scenes were witnessed elsewhere in the country. Jewish community leaders spoke out, loud and clear, in support of Muslims and against hate and bigotry. \n\nBut that is not what Elghawaby did. Instead, she makes it sounds as though it is Muslims who are the victims, while failing to mention the barbarity unleashed on Oct. 7. This is not leadership. This is not her mandate. Her job is to promote tolerance as enshrined in Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. \n\nNow imagine a scenario in which Muslims did what they ought to have done in the first place: condemned the Hamas attack, sided with the Jewish victims and dissociated themselves from terrorism. Their voices for the Palestinian cause would have carried much more weight. \n\nWhat we are seeing instead is a rising tide of anti-Jewish hate on our streets, promoted and peddled by Muslim leaders themselves, either by gaslighting the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, or wallpapering it with the political colours of the Palestinian cause. \n\nLet us all come together, not to let hate be poured onto the streets of Canada, but to stand united for a secure and prosperous country. \n\nNational Post \n\nRaheel Raza and Mohammad Rizwan are members of the Council of Muslims Against Antisemitism.

Spot on. Moving to Canada was the worst mistake of my life. I wish that I could go back in time and get all the years and resources that I have invested into settling here... Canada has had a great PR internationally, and Canadians are too polite to complain, so I had to learn it on my own after moving. Good that the truth is finally coming out. Everything here is deteriorating FAST.

Can’t believe Ontario is on there. Sure come to Canada and with two jobs in twenty years you can have down payment for a house your kids might be able to pay off

Regarding making friends... it is hard making friends in Canada. Even if you are an introvert and you come to Canada alone eventually you will want to make friends to find an spouse. People in Canada are too politically correct that will barely talk to you... so the advise is trying to find your own group of people: church/religion, hobbies, etc. and take initiative to invite people to hang out , etc.

What has happened in Canada is actually quite simple. Companies sell products and services. Companies require employees in order to sell those products and services. The difference between what the companies can those products and services for and what they pay the employees is profit. The owners of the companies want to maximize this profit, therefore want to pay employees as little as possible. Scarcity is labour is one of the driving factors behind what employees are paid. One way to decrease scarcity of labour is to bring in massive amounts of immigrants. That is exactly what Canada has been doing for decades. The owners of the companies take profits and invest it in real estate. This makes real estate unaffordable for the employees whose wages have been suppressed. Lower wages also means less money from taxes available for services like health care. We allowed our politicians to be bribed into allowing massive levels of immigration. Stagnant wage growth resulted in lowered consumptive capacity in the economy. This lead to stagnant economic activity and lowered investment into things that would make the Canadian economy more productive. What we have now is unaffordable housing. Lack of jobs. A failing health care system. An educational system where the bar was lowered to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Increased crime and substance abuse resulting from the subsequent hopelessness. Several families living in a single house. People working several low paying jobs just to try to get by. People with full-time jobs that are forced to choose between being homeless or starving to death. The immigrants that are still coming here are sleeping on the sidewalk in front of homeless shelters, or maybe scraping by delivering UberEats.

Sardar Ji . very difficult to save even 100$ .\nThat's true worthless to come to Canada

And, people come to Canada expecting to find a home and a prosperous job, but consider working in the trades, a key element to building homes, is not what they want to do for work. Too many don’t want to do manual labour. They want “easy” jobs because labour is beneath them.

Immigrant come to Canada for one thing only - Money Thinking a job here with the exchange rate of their own countries money is almost double What they fail to see is The cost of living here is also double...Add in the factor of low skill paying jobs And how things work We have a flood gate of new comers Soon you will have Canadians moving out

Canada is making money off the immigrants who come and pay for visa and rents etc while immigrants stay poor in Canada as they're paying more than what they benefit.

The dirty secret is that it's overpopulation that causes these problems. UN predicts 10 billion by 2050 a 25% increase from current 8 billion. That extra population is from high fertility countries that can't support the population they have right now let alone 20 years time, so these people have to migrate. However bad you think it is in Canada, or wherever, right now it's going to get much, much worse in the coming decades.

ha ha ha\nyou \nspeak\nmy\nthoughts\n\nlmaoo\n\nim an immigrant. i came here not for settle down my life here or not anything like that at all.\ni decided to come here, because my family is living here.\ni come from a Asian country.\n\nyesh.\nwhat i had been experiencing in my country, my city are actually better than Toronto, tbh.\ni didn't expect that i will come here and then settle down here.\nafter one year, my mind has already thought about moving to another continent after a few years in Canada.\ni missed my family. i love them.\nbut i just cannot.\nhere is not what i want for myself. i don't feel that i belong to here.

Look at all these winning ppl who left,,, u coming to canada on Indian expectations,, what u want to become millionaire in 1 year? It takes time to settle and learn the new culture and system

People who *come to Canada* now are misguided, mislead, misinformed and mostly miserable!

Make an informed decision and stay at home. \nDont come to canada.

The green is not greener in this side. I would not even consider as a foreigner to come ro canada. Our gov't is no longer democratic.

Lack of housing and increased cost of living that is exceeding income growth seems to be a problem in many first world countries. In Canada we need to cool immigration until we have caught up with the housing needs of the people already here so its a good thing that people don't want to come here.

I think you could say the same for every first world countries major cities. Immigrates first consideration should be to improve their opportunities in their home country and avoid migration. \n\nFirst generation immigrants to Canada going back to the early 1900’s had a very difficult life and often only their children benefit. Many immigrants come to Canada with the sole purpose of obtaining a passport for ticket out of their political unstable native country if it goes south.

I came back after 20 years in the U.S. I don't know which one is the most messed up. Canada is not like it's used to be, and not for the best. This mass immigration, post-national nonsense is destroying the country. People come in just for the benefit without feeling the need to integrate.

Currently, annual immigration in Canada amounts to around 500,000 new immigrants – one of the highest rates per population of any country in the world. As of 2022, there were more than eight million immigrants with permanent residence living in Canada - roughly 20 percent of the total Canadian population. Where is the data coming from that no one wants to live in Canada anymore?\n\nCanadians love to complain. Yes, there is crime, homelessness, drug use, extreme weather, housing crisis... but that's not isolated to Canada. Obviously there are ways to improve, but I wonder which other country would Canadians like to live in instead? Also, Canada is not just Vancouver and Toronto... Canadians are spoiled with the ability to easily move to lower cost of living areas in the same country. Imagine living in Singapore where and entire country is expensive and a Toyota Prius costs more than $100k, or Hong Kong where the real estate prices make Vancouver seem cheap... but people can't move away.

I'm an Indigenous Canadian and I don't want to live here. Canada is a good place to live for rich people though. If you come from a poor family it truly sucks. Can't wait to finish university and move out of here. ?

these 2 clowns are giving very bad advice. if you come to canada on a tourist visa and overstay you will be arrested and deported immediately.

God's mother ok to yuo to help me work I Canada this coming 2024

Canadians don’t want you coming here! Regardless of what you hear the feckless, government funded, media hacks say, the fact is, the Canadian People do not want you USA rejects, Or any other illegal immigrants invading Canada! Trudeau, stating that he speaks for all Canadians is an outright LIE! If “Canadians” had their fair say, Trudeau would be LONG GONE!! We despise Trudeau, and we despise illegal migrants!

People are coming to Canada because they think the grass is always greener on the other side then reality hits them then they leave.

Am I lucky ? I allways wanted to live in Canada but it didnot happen. Somehow I never applied to live in Canada, I am happy in Europe and South America. I love to come to Canada and many other places in the world as a tourist.

As a born and raised Canadian millennial, I'm grateful to have escaped Canada almost a decade ago when even back then I could no longer tolerate the conditions of Greater Toronto. It's exponentially worse in Toronto today. I wish the best for Canada but I just can't see it improving over the coming decades. I love my life in the US too much to ever move back, but fortunately close enough to make the drive to visit friends and family.

Why guys come to Canada without any savings?

Nice video am planning to come to Canada with my wife for her masters program, and am her sponsor I have a registered company in Nigeria that brings more than one thousand Canadian dollars every month I have houses lands etc is there anything else I should look at for?